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Post Info TOPIC: Lethality of a shotgun - (It's heresy to Bob A.)


Molted Crow

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Lethality of a shotgun - (It's heresy to Bob A.)
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It's about ducks but I believe all living things are are killed in the same manner.  It contradicts a long held theory that shock to the central nervous system without a traumatic wound to an organ will kill. 

I posted this on the other site and it was deleted shortly after by Bob.  Apparently discussion of ideas that do not support his own theories are now deleted.  He's just giving more reasons for people to leave there and come here smile

http://www.wildfowling.co.uk/magazine/penet.htm



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Elusive Crow

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well I do know that you can find posts on the water fowl forums where guys had breasted out or skinned their geese and found pellets in breast meat and in the wing bones that were so old they had cysts growing around them.. I've even seen pics of wing bones with pellets lodged in them and the bone grew over the pellet.

I can't really dispute the argument one way or the other.. I don't do autopsies on my crows, to find out which ones died from a panic attack.biggrin

 

As for Bob A. ... nothing he does surprises me. I do believe someone mentioned this site.. over there... and he deleted the post.

 



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Baby Crow

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That is why I like to hear peoples ideas,opinions and advice. You never know when you can learn more!!!



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Take the shot then watch em fall



Elusive Crow

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watch em fall wrote:

That is why I like to hear peoples ideas,opinions and advice. You never know when you can learn more!!!


 Agree 100%



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Molted Crow

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So that's what happened to this thread...

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Molted Crow

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I do believe in the theory of the nerve shock killing simply because I have skinned enough hares, shot with a shotgun, that had the pellets right under the skin. When you pulled the skin off, the pellets just fell out from under the first layer of skin. They did not even penetrate the meat. The hares/foxes could not possibly have died from injury to vital organs. Sure, some shots are lethal for the animal. Some go right through it, my first fox was shot with a powerfull 4mm Cartridge at under 20ft. The pellets went through the fox. But that is not the usual case. We all know the story of the ONE pellet penetrating the brain of the pheasent, pigeon, duck or crow. I consider them a lucky shot. Most are not that lucky. They get hit by one or two pellets and may survive but more likely don't. I also noticed that sometimes when you have not killed the animal (easiest to see on hares because you can see that it was hit) at the first shot (with too few pellets), the shock reaction is gone. THEN they get really hard to kill and have to be "hot dead" s in killed by injury. I've seen it too often to doubt it.
 
When I get new shotgun shells I always test them on cardboard with diffent chockes at various distances. If the pattern is satisfactory my next test is for power of penetration (well yes, I do like to get both effects :). It also gives you an indication how much power your cartridge has at different distances...). I shoot at a phone book to see how deep the pellets penetrate. Knowing that your gear (gun and cartridge) works well together is crucial for me. No animal deserves to be shot at without the best chance to be killed on the spot. It also gives ME confidence when shooting with a shotgun. And I think we all agree that there is nothing worse than that nagging doubt in your head when you have made a "good shot" but the bird/hare did not respond as was expected. The next shot you take is accompanied by doubt in the gear and it all goes downhill from there.
 
For me it's pattern over power. For crows/foxes (and other vermin that I do not intend to eat) however it's pattern AND power ;)

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Molted Crow

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Zeddicus, do you skin the heads of those hares as well? My guess a dead hare without obvious penetrating wound(s) had a pellet or two strike the head similiar to a blow to one's temple.

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Molted Crow

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I don't. But if the pellet won't penetrerate the flesh, am I wrong to assume, that it will not have penetrated the bones in the skull! Plus, if you get a clear headshot you can tell by the animals reaction because they tend to " jump and jerk" for a while even though they are already dead.

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Molted Crow

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Just came to mind, in switzerland they shoot deer with shotguns, surely there must be something about shock by skin reflex - that's a convincing fact - for me anyway.

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Molted Crow

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We use shotguns in the US too. At 25 to 30 yards 00 buckshot will penetrate the vital organs. I don't believe there is anything to death by multiple wounds that barely break the skin otherwise #9 shot would work on everything.

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Molted Crow

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But they are using 3.5 or even 3mm pellets.
And to be honest, no 9 will kill anything that you can reasonably kill with a shotgun. Just have to get close enough...
;)

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Molted Crow

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At the end of the day one has to shoot what he's confident with. With that nagging feeling of doubt between the ears because you don't trust the ammo, you won't even hit the target. Shotgun shootingstarts and ends with confidence, the rest is details. Ps: IMHO :)

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Molted Crow

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Zeddicus wrote:

But they are using 3.5 or even 3mm pellets.
And to be honest, no 9 will kill anything that you can reasonably kill with a shotgun. Just have to get close enough...
;)


Zeddicus, thank you for making my point for me i.e. "just have to get close enough."  What you have said is the small shot lacking mass only works when close enough, because at close range it can penetrate and penetration is what kills, not shock from pellets striking but not penetrating.

#9 will work on nything you can reasonably kill with shotgun?  I guess you don't hunt duck, goose or turkey but if you are 10 yards or so 9's will work.   Not the choice of competitive pigeon shooters either although allowable.



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Molted Crow

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To be honest I was being a bit sarcastic. Of couse a no9 will kill nearly anything from 5yds away. It's just not practical and you won't be able to eat many anymals you'd shoot (not that you'd get many if you have to get this close...). No. 9 to me is for practice on the skeet range, we don't have such small birds that would require no 9s.

According to most literatue I have read, the pellets must penetrate - the skin - in sufficient numbers to cause a shock death. Of course they are just as dead if the pellet hits vital organs. I choose my amunition so that the pattern is right at the distance I am planning to shoot, and that the shot size and energy is enough to get penetration of the skin without too much damage of the meat. If the weather is dry I'd shoot hares with a no 5, if it's wet I'd use #3 also at a bigger distance to compensate for wet fur..

For Ducks it's - usually - no 5, for pigeons #7. For crows #5 or 6 with powerful cartridges at any distance as I don't eat them...

Once again, I am not dogmatic about this - I just enjoy discussions and hearing about other peoples experience.

Shoot the cartridge that gives you confidence and results. Dead Vermin is dead vermin is dead vermin!

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