The shot shell of choice for crows

Splash One · Elusive Crow

The shot shell of choice for crows

Gary · Dances With Crows

This subject is one that has many different opinions. I have read time and time again that bigger is better. This is not the case. I was having a conversation the other day with a buddy that said he knew a guy that was using 3.5" #6 loads in a 10 gauge shotgun to shoot crows and his reasoning was that 12 gauge #7.5 and #8 shot would not kill a crow at 40 or more yards. A couple of things came to mind when I heard this. First, why are we shooting crows over 40 yards on a consistent basis? Secondly, from many years of experience I can tell you a 12 gauge shot shell with 1235 fps in a #7.5 or #8 shot will definitely bring down a crow with the proper lead at 40+ yards, been there done that and got a tee shirt. The only reason I can see where one would want to use a 10 gauge shotgun for anything other than goose hunting is they like to have the crap knocked out of them repeatedly while trying to have a good time. Another observation I see is at 40+ yards when you shoot at at crow you are giving the rest of the birds with this crow, if any, a better chance to escape after hearing the shot or seeing movement from your stand. I realize there are different reasons for doing different things so I stand open for the why's and the why not's. Please help me understand!

watch em fall · Baby Crow

doh I think alot of people think a crow is farther than it is. It takes experience to judge distance. Most 50-60 yard shots people make are usually 40ish. I know 50 plus yard shots are makeable, been there done that. My question is how can someone afford 3.5 mags for volume shooting and how could you shoot more than 5 or 6 times without screaming alound from the brutal recoil???

Nada Mucho · Feb 5, 2012

Scratch my head with the 10ga 3.5 scenario. Makes me think of putting a punt gun on wheels and calling it a field gun. I say let the combination of shooting/calling skills and matching the right equipment for the job prevail. I've observed seasoned farts with small gauge single shots make amazing shots in dove fields on windy days. Maybe the fella needs a lesson or two in a few critical areas. I do agree with the $$ and recoil issue of the big honking 10.

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

Splash One wrote:
I cant even imagine shooting 3.5 10g at ANYTHING... I would guess someone using a 10 gauge for anything other than goose has no confidence in their shooting skills and is attempting to compensate by throwing more shot in the air instead of practicing ..
Here is a video of me shooting down a couple crows at about 40 yards with a .410...neither shot was a clean kill... it was however a .410 #7.5 shot...

-- Edited by Splash One on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 04:49:59 PM

Splash, the 3.5" 10ga is the the 10ga Magnum. Standard 10ga guns and loads, 2 7/8", have not been available in a long time. Ammo went out of production in the 70's and Ithaca probably made the last of the standard 10's just before WWII started. It is a lost gun/shell combination but an extremely outstanding performer because afterall the 10ga is the ultimate in overbores, at least legally.

I love shooting the short 10 at crows and not because I have no confidence in my shooting skills, quite the opposite. I want a gun to give me the maximum long range performance. I shoot 1000's of shells at trap, skeet and sporting clays during the off season. The big 10 lets me shoot to my maximum capability because I do take shots and kills birds that I will pass up when using a 12ga. I want to always look at a crow gliding overhead at 60 yards (and sometimes more) and then more often than not, stone 'em. It's also very satisfying to literally make them explode in a giant plume of feathers when hit close with a 1 1/4 ounce loads.

As far as recoil, a 9 to 10lb 10ga shooting 1 1/4 ounce loads kicks noticably less than a 7.5 lb 12ga shooting 1 1/8 ounce loads and the shotgun recoil calculator proves it.

You can kill crows with a 410 and 7.5's but much more often you going to have hoppers and have to leave the blind to finish and retrieve them just as shown in the video. That leaves you wide open to being out of the blind at the wrong time and losing other opportunities.

The 10ga is not for everyone, but not everyone using one is trying to make up for lack of confidence or skill.

As far as the cost of shells, they are a bit more money, that's due to the cost of hulls and wads. By reloading I can still keep them to about $6.50 per box of 25. If you have read this far here is how one loads 2 7/8" 10ga shells which starts with cutting down hulls to the right size.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Saturday 3rd of March 2012 06:15:45 PM

Splash One · Elusive Crow

NH I should have worded my post better, I was referring to the post Gary made and the few people I have seen, that when presented the specs of a 10 vs 12g always seem to be wowed by the extra bore, and shot.. like it's going to help them be better hunters. Also I don't think anyone NEEDS to shoot a 10g at crows.. and 6 shot will give you nicers holes at long range.. but I dont think the majority of crow hunters are going to attempt a long shot that could possibly cause a hopper way outside their spread, or worse.. miss 3 times and educate the crow and any others flying with it.

Being that I don't shoot a 10g I did not know the only shot size available was 3.5... I was thinking about what the difference between an 2 3/4, 3, and 3.5 feel like coming out of a 12g and still can not imagine the recoil of a 10g 3.5" load... let alone one shot from a break barrel double gun....even with weight helping control muzzle rise, and kick...

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it... obviously they do their job... it just doesn't seem like something I'd want to repeat 100 times or more in one morning.... Black and blue are not my favorite color combos.

I hear ya about the puff ball... who doesn't like watching a bird explode when you hit it... that is one of the reasons I like pigeon hunting...and pigeons bounce well too... I would liken it to ground hog hunting... more grains, faster round = more flips.... but ... that type of high volume hunting is usually shot from a rest of some sort...

I am more then willing to meet people 50% of the way on their views... as long as they are willing to do the same... As for the 410... I agree.. a person is more likely to create a wounded bird then stone it dead... the video I posted was on a day where I knew the crows heard me, as I could hear them off in the distance.. and were not coming to me no matter what I did,....

so when I dropped the one hopper in the spread... i chased after it because I wanted a bird in hand... on a day where they would be streaming in I would not have chased it unless it started creating problems. That crow was only the second bird I've ever killed with a 410.... the first being the one I sailed 300+ yards as was absolutely NOT going to retrieve.

-- Edited by Splash One on Saturday 3rd of March 2012 08:28:37 PM

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

Gary and Splash, one of the first comments I hear from people who hear of me shooting crows with a 10 gauge is how the recoil is or would be too much to handle when it is quite the opposite, the 10ga kicks less. Keep in mind I am not shooting a 10ga magnum with 2 ounce and better loads, I am using the standard 10ga load pre 1900, 1 1/4 ounce.

Here is a recoil comparison for the 2 7/8" 10ga I am shooting, I am not getting the crap kicked out of me, quite the opposite.

Using a recoil calculator found on the internet for my typical reloads and guns:

8 pound 12 ga shooting 1 1/4 ounce at 1250 fps = 23 ft lbs of recoil

7 1/2 pound 12 ga shooting 1 1/8 ounce at 1200 fps = 18 ft lbs of recoil

10 1/4 pound 10ga shooting 1 1/4 ounce at 1200 fps = 16 ft lbs of recoil

My old 10 bore (built in 1893) is producing almost one third less recoil than one of my heavy 12's shooting 1 1/4 ounce loads and 12% less recoil than an average weight 12ga shooting 3 dram 1 1/8 ounce STS or AA (heavy target) loads.

Now I used to think 1 1/4 ounce load, big deal, I can shoot that out of a 12ga. You can but it is not even close to being the same, you really have to experience the tighter patterns the big bore throws to appreciate it.

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 4th of March 2012 01:46:21 AM

watch em fall · Baby Crow

On this site different opinions and ideas or techniques are welcomed. You can have a reasonable debate without getting slammed. I have not had to much experience with any double gun. I shot my Grandpa's Fox Sterling 20 a few times when I was younger, I'd give every gun I own to have Grandpa back just to share a day in crowblind with him. I still have my dad's model 15 remington 20 pump, might take it out this summer for nastalga.

10ga crow shooter · Mar 4, 2012

nothen like an old SXS 20 ga, i have killed my fair take of ducks , crows and a few geese mixed in with my 20 ga ruger o/u and my parkers. do you have his fox? that would make it even better biggrin 10 ga

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

A.H. Fox shotguns have the most satisfying Ka-Klink when they close which comes from their rotary bolt design. Is the Remington 20ga a pump? If so I think it is a Remington Model 17. I have a Model 17, it was a John Brownng design and Ithaca bought the rights to it later and created the Model 37 Ithaca. I should use mine once in awhile too. You are very fortunate to have a family gun or two Watch Em.

Gary · Dances With Crows

nh, thanks for the education on 10's. I guess not owning one it is easy to form an uneducated opinon. From reading your post and looking at your specs one thing stands out to me. It is the weight of the gun. We Run and Gun probably 85% of the time and there is no way these ole guys could make it all day carrying a 10lb. gun, and raising up and down as much as we do. My hats off to you,. if it works for you, use it. I am going to have to stick with my little 12 ga.

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

It's fun and educational for me too. That 10.25lb weight is for my heavy Parker 10 bore. I have a Remington model 1894 10ga, built in 1900 that weighs 8 3/4lb, 10gacrowshooter has a lighter Parker 10ga built on a 12ga frame that weighs the same. They of course kick more than a heavier gun but are still pretty tame compared to a 12ga shooting the same weight load. If you are on the move they would not be the first gun of choice. They are best used in blinds when the action is intermittent and you can see crows coming in order to pick them up and get ready. Like most things in life to gain in one area you have to give up in another.

Splash One · Elusive Crow

Well I appreciate the education... I am the type of person that gets into everything as apposed to someone that has a few hobbys.... The down side for me is, I don't get into the details of certain things because I am doing so much... BUT I love learning about new things... and am always open to others opinions...

watch em fall · Baby Crow

No don't have that 20gauge Fox. When my grandfather died it was willed to my cousin cause way back in the day it was bought from my uncles grandfather. So that gun probly got sold by now, or sitting in a closet somewhere. wish I did own it though. Yeah the remington 20 is a pump model 17 with a polychoke and I will be breaking it out this summer for some outings. My partner and I actually were talking in the blind this morning. Next outing is pump gun only hunt. So my Model 1200 Winchester 12gauge is going to be getting a workout. Of course a 1200 is almost a semi, really quick action on mine. Older no vent rib, mod.choke old school weapon.

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

"You will need shotgun shells in #6 or #5 shot. Please no 7 1/2 or 8 shot as these are too light for shots past 40 yards."

Jerry Tomlin outfits for crow hunts in Milledgeville, GA, approximately 90 miles south of Atlanta. Jerry has successfully guided over 600 shoots totaling 31,000 crows. .

http://www.thecrowroost.com/Crow_Shoots.htm#TXTOBJ7D01131286F01

-- Edited by nhcrowshooter on Sunday 11th of March 2012 03:53:52 PM

Gary · Dances With Crows

NH, Remember Jerry is advertising to a very large audience. I have spoken with Jerry and he says that most of his clients have not had very much to little experience shooting crows and can not shoot very well. You would be surprised at his averages per box of shells per gun. "Not to Good". He is shooting crows in open pecan orchards and it is not that the 7.5's will not do the job it is that the hunter can not range properly and 40 or more, like 60 when they shoot. He says the biggest problem he has is making the client wait until they are within real gun range. SOOOO he suggest 5-6's for the nonexperienced.

Splash One · Elusive Crow

Gary I agree...it's not that the shot size is needed... it's that you can't count on a customer to finish the job or have any skill what so ever, so you always go with a bit more bang that may be needed for the job.

I use to work as a deckhand on the open party deep sea fishing boats out of San Diego... I ALWAYS put heavier sinker on the novice "rent rod" fisherman because it kept them from tangling with themselves and everyone else... where everyone else was using a 1/4oz sinker...the "rent rod'ers" would have 1/2oz or better...

I can't tell you how many times I've had customers complain that they didn't catch fish because we didn't put them in the right spot, or because they were tangled the whole time...when in actuality...they didn't catch fish because they sucked...so eventually...you just go with what you KNOW will work and don't give them the choice to fish like everyone else.

nhcrowshooter · Molted Crow

I went on a goose hunt many years ago and watched guys in our blind in their brand new Columbia outfits and new guns ground swatting geese and missing everything airborne. The guide got tired of them educating so many birds so even though 10gacrowshooter and I had limited he told us to shoot when the next flock came in to reach a limit for the blind. I don't think the other guys even knew what happened.

Anyways, my thought about using 6's which I do think and have seen to be much more effective in the 40 to 60 yard range is why not? They work just as well on close birds and the fact is no matter how good a hunter you are not every bird will come close nor will you see every bird in time to take the close shot, especially if hunting alone. Also 2nd shots (we use doubles) and the person shooting 2nd when taking turns doesn't always get a shot at the/a close one.

A tight choke and 6's means I am good from 10 to 60 yards and I am quite comfortable shooting tight chokes at close range. I am not eating crows and I don't care how hard they are hit unlike upland game and waterfowl.

Splash One · Elusive Crow

NH, I hear what you're saying... I'm not disagreeing with shot size effectiveness... I'm just saying...as a person who has been in the position of getting paid to produce results... it really sucks when you put someone smack dab on the X and they cant get it done...
I use to shoot 4s at crows with an IC and M choke...it seemed natural for me because I use to shoot pigeon at feed lots from stupidly high in the air...
so your 6s get no argument from me... I switched to 7.5 because cost became a big factor... and I just cant see reloading for a 12g... well I have always wanted to fill a 3.5" shell will 9 shot for flock shooting starlings..

Zeddicus · Molted Crow

The choice of most people I hunt with are 2,7 or 2,9 mm in 12/70. I think what's most important is pattern and power at the distance you shoot. To work out a general rule is near impossible because every gun shoots different with diff Ammo. Then there is the choice of chokes... I patterned different shells and the best for my gun are Win Superspeed, Hull Sovereign and Thorhammer when I want power. Early in the season I would get away with less powerful cartridges. Most of my crow shooting does not require long shots, 15-25 meters max. If I have different cartridges that throw the same pattern a phone book will decide to see which cartridge has the most power. Just see how many pages are penetrated. The tightest choke I have ever used was halfchoke with my Franchi Predator which shoots very tight patterns so I usually use 1/4 choke (imp cyl?). Regards, Zeddicus

-- Edited by Zeddicus on Monday 19th of March 2012 12:43:21 PM